Mahmoud El-Kati

Interest or occupation: Education, social service, and welfare. Age: 66 Del: What is your definition of the Civil Rights Movement? El-kati: The Civil Rights Movement is a response to the failure of the reconstruction era that was suppose to transform America into an open and democratic society for all people, by allowing the people who'd been enslaved for two and half centuries to become citizens and enjoy all the rights that were theirs to enjoy, after the reconstruction. They started to do that and it was avoided for all sorts of reasons. In 1896 the Supreme Court decision officially sanctioned segregation under the separate but equal clause that made segregation, degradation, and humiliation of people legal according to the law of the land. And so organizations such as the Niagara movement, the NAACP, and others in the first decade of the century made a response to the failure of the government to protect the rights of African people, which was written in the Constitution in the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and 1875, and so forth were in effect nullified by politics and power. So the Civil Rights Movement is a direct response to gain those rights that black people were supposed to gain from the Constitution and that's what makes it a civil rights question. It's about citizenship, it's about having the rights that are guaranteed in the 14th amendment that all persons born and naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the state that they resided in. In a nutshell, the Civil Rights Movement was a response to the failure of the people who ruled, during the last 35 years of the 19th century and failed to be responsible morally, politically, and otherwise. That's the Civil Rights Movement. It's an effort to make America a democratic country for all people especially for black people. That spins off into all people. That's how I define the Civil Rights Movement, a struggle to gain citizenship rights that black people do not enjoy. Del: What you think of the Civil Rights Movement today? El-kati: Well, we are in a valley. We are not peaking. But there are some things going right now, people are trying. People who are still trying are the same people that were struggling in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. We are still here. People forget that most of them are still alive. And many of them are still loyal to their convictions. They're still trying to do whatever they can do. There are a few young people who are trying, it's very difficult for young people to understand, the way history has been distorted. But I encounter young people who are interested, they don't grow on trees. But some of them are trying to understand what happened so they will know what to do. The essence of the struggle took place 15 to 20 years ago, but it is still in evidence to me today. It is not as coherent, it's not as organized, it doesn't have the kind of leadership that you were lucky enough to have in those years; the 60's and part of the 70's. So people are floundering trying to find one another. To create another movement that is on another level. We can't do what we did during the Civil Rights Era. We have to deal with a different set of problems. Relatively a different set of problems. The main problem is white supremacy that's still the foundation, the fundamental problem. But we are not fighting overt, in your face white supremacy racism, with signs that say that you can go here or there, and you can't do this, or the other. That's gone. That was easy the fight because it was identifiable. But now racism is so much more insidious than it was then. People don't say, but they do. They don't have signs, but people can change their behavior without changing what they believe. And they find other ways to act it out. That's how you have red lining, and profiling, it's the same thing. I'll give you an example of someone just discovering how people can discriminate or be discriminated against based on the names that they carry. We know that a generation of people in Black America are growing up with names that are not European names. There is Shaniqua, Kwami, and Omar. People don't talk about this, it has been a quiet revolution. People who are in power noticed it and they know that Shaniqua is not going to be a white girl nine times out of ten. They know Kwami is going to be a black guy. It is really more convenient then the way they used to do it: by putting N's next to black people's names. Now they've got the people who have chosen traditional names, or religious names that are non-European type names. And that is a new way to discriminate. They know that people who use these names were probably born in the last 25 years. I have taught a high school class that was full of people with names like that. But that again is just the same old racism that it has transferred onto names. I think the most important thing to remember about racism is it's persistent. Many things have come and gone, but it remains the same. Many things have changed but not that. Del: In your opinion would the public protesting and boycotts of the past be an effective way to make a change today? El-kati: Not on the same level or in the same way. I think strategically it can work. You can't protest the way you used to do. It just doesn't have that same effect. It just doesn't. People don't respond to it the same way. I think in a given situation whatever that might be, it would call for very tactical and strategical type of protest. That might have some impact. Del: How would you define the relationship between the Black Arts Movement and the Civil Rights Movement? El-kati: One is the hand mate of the other. No Civil Rights Movement no Black Arts Movement. You can't do that artist esquirian thing that Europeans do. Civil Rights Movement gave Black people popular consciousness. The critical masses of people got involved. The notion of struggle and the moral component of the struggle. The artist were always there, most pronounce in our musical component. In the sixties, different aspects of creativity happened all at once. The writings, the poets, the visual artist, new developments is music. I think the Civil Rights Movement fueled the Rap Movement. It opened the door for new ways of expression. Del: What do you think is the most important issue African Americans have to deal with today? El-kati: White supremacy. You have to talk about that before you talk about anything else. That's what I think. That's not a good answer. I know people want to think it is housing or jobs. No, it's white supremacy before you are able to move on to anything else. Del: Control El-kati: It's obvious African Americans are controlled by the powers that be, which is rooted in Europe. White Americans control pretty much the identity and the destiny of African people in this country, as do imperialist, oppressors, and suppressors around the world. People who are immigrants come out of similar situations in many cases religious persecution, political, repression, economic exploitation. Black people have experienced all of it. Except religious persecution because you don't have any really open and a readily expression of African religions. African religions shaped the expression of African Americans orientation toward Christianity there's no doubt about that. But you can't do here what people do in Cuba or Brazil, like Santa Ria. Recognized expressions of African religions. We don't do that here. So I'm saying we have experienced political repression and super exploitation economically as slaves, so we have that in common with the rest of the colonized imperial oppressed world, the so called Third World. Del: Dehumanize El-kati: I think perhaps Black people, with the possible exception of the Native Americans are the most dehumanized, in the sense that you know it was prescribed into law that we weren't human beings and in fact property. And the best we could do was three-fifths of a person for political representation. So black people have been exploited in every way. I remember a statement by the great conservative William Buckley who was quoting another conservative who defined black people as the most God possessed and man despised people on the face of the earth. A very apt description for our relationship to America. There has been no stone left unturned to degrade or to oppress in anyway. To convince black people that they are not full-fledged human beings. There has been a great amount of effort in the American system to convince black people themselves. The law, the educational system, movies, television, before that radio. I think Black Americans if not the most dehumanized, are among the most dehumanize people on the planet in the modern world. Del: Stigma El-kati: Stigma is what we have plenty of. The stigma is that we are dumb, sovelently, people that lack ambition, that we are loud. We don't make soft music. The stigma is that we don't make music that speaks to theÊessence of the human condition like the songs created by the slaves. Those are not things we are associated with. The complexities of human condition. It is always one dimensional. Any negative thing you can think of about human behavior you can apply to black people. Socially, politically, and economically. They will say we don't want to work and work is the reason why we are here. The presence of Black people in America has to do with economics. We fulfilled the search for cheap source of labor and then the racism starts to justify the act of using Africans for the source of cheap labor. We were super exploited. White working class people were just exploited. Because they did get wages, and so forth. Nobody in the world has been exploited the way Black people have. This was the common condition for Africans. We were super exploited all over the western hemisphere. So we are stigmatized anyway you look at it; intellectually, morally, socially, politically. Any American unless he or she is a thinking person, and most of us are not, would question that, including black people. When you say "black" you think of all the negative things you can think of for person because it has been pounded in people's head. That is one of the great tragedies of America and the great tragedies of being white is so much of what they believe in the very visceral of their being is false, but it prevails, lies do prevail. The ideology of white supremacy causes people to defend lies. They can't say I was wrong about that or I need to rethink or revisit that. They can not acknowledge that African people in the United States of America are the most American of Americans because we have been here longer. They have been a part of every phase of development of this country. And many times the central part of America's political and economic development. When Black people were laying the foundation for this country most people who consider themselves "white" did not know this country existed in 1619. They knew nothing about the basic wealth of America. The tobacco, sugar, rice, indigo, and cotton that made this country rich. I don't mean that there are no Americans that know this information. But the general lot of Americans know absolutely nothing about America on the visceral level. And that allows the myth making process of what America is. Like everybody's free. That's nonsense. Del: Traumatize El-kati: Of course we are traumatized we are among the first to suffer from post-traumatic stress. We are in a stressful situation being black in America. In varying degrees no matter what your class is it is there. The most persistent thing about the existence of America is white supremacy. A lot of other things have come and gone but racism is still here. It just changes forms. We have been traumatize by slavery. We have not recovered from slavery. There's no way, we live in the shadows of slavery. My great-grandparents were slaves. That is was like it was yesterday. The reality is this country lives in the shadows of slavery. That's why we have the problems that we have. Because of slavery and out of those conditions grew certain images, messages, symbols, ideas, beliefs and vales, and so forth around the idea of race and black inferiority. That's the order of the day. Del: Loss El-kati: We have lost so much. A great part of our memory of being Africans. The beautiful part of what it meant to be African. We have lost our identity. Black people have miraculously created another identity. Which is one of the greatest stories of the modern world, African American nationality. That is one ofÊthe great stories of resilience, endurance, and creativity above all. Del: Identity El-kati: That is ongoing question for the black community. Identity is how people define their destiny and who they are. Having control of your identity means you are free. All free people control their identity and destiny. Del: Survival El-kati: Survival is what we do best. We are not supposed to be here. A lessor people would have withered away a long time ago. We have not only survived, but we have thrived. Del: Inspire El-kati: Our story is an inspirational story. The Black American story is in essence an heroic story. If you read literature from Greek mythology we fit heroism, the underdog, the guy who's been beaten down, but still gets up again. We are heroic people. Del: Hope El-kati: We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for hope. Songs that speak of hope. The first songs that can be called American was created by the slaves that could not read or write. The songs are hopeful as we all know; Swing Low Sweet Chariot, Go Down Moses, Let My People Go, We Gonna Cross Jordan. The whole history of black music is hopeful. Del: Closure El-kati: In order to reach closure the whole world has to come together. We have to bring the death of white supremacy. We could live as human beings without that suffocating idea that controls so much of the world.

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